Council bitterly debates P&Z pick

Order takes backseat to shouting over nominee, procedure

Council members question selection process, chastised by chairman, other member

Vote on P&Z appointment expected Nov. 21

Each applicant gets vote until one gets majority

Updated 10/29/2024: Expands coverage of history of selections to P&Z and editor’s notes for context. Corrects number of P&Z members living in District III.

MANDEVILLE — The City Council meeting Thursday (October 24th) descended into a shouting match at times amid debate and questions over the selection of a nominee to fill an open Planning & Zoning Commission seat.

District I Councilwoman Cynthia Strong-Thompson called two points of order against other council members who during debate were critical of her reasoning or the selection process itself.

The P&Z seat in question was vacated by Mike Pierce, who unexpectedly resigned earlier this year.

Pierce was one of three “no” votes on the seven-person commission during the controversial Sucette Harbor application process of 2023.

Sucette Harbor, which was to be built in District II, was rejected by the City Council September 5th, 2023, resulting in the City and Councilman at Large Jason Zuckerman each being sued by the developer, Woodward Interests. Those lawsuits are still pending in federal court.

The P&Z selection process has long been contentious and often criticized by the public as well as council members both past and present.

Over the last few decades, each new council has adopted new procedures, ranging from using score cards, to having the council chairman make a nomination which would be voted on by the full council, to the process that was adopted last month, which directs the council chairman to form a “small committee” comprised of one at-large member plus one district member.

This small committee is directed to return a nomination from among those individuals who apply for the open seat during an advertised application period. The full council must vote by simple majority on the small committee’s nominee in order for that individual to fill the vacancy.

According to the latest procedure — adopted in September via Resolution 24-60 — if the first nominee doesn’t receive a majority, the small committee “shall” make a different nomination from the remaining applicants. The process repeats until one of the applicants receives a majority vote. If none do, the application process starts all over.

Applications were received from the following: Shawn Potter from District I, Judge Pat Rosenow from District II, and Ernest Burguières from District III.

Currently, five of the seven P&Z members live in District III, while one lives in Strong-Thompson’s District I. District II has no representation.

Council Chairman and Councilman at Large Scott Discon chose himself plus Strong-Thompson for the small committee, after initially asking District III Councilwoman Jill McGuire, who turned down the appointment, instead recommending that Discon choose District II Councilman Kevin Vogeltanz.

Discon started Thursday’s discussion by announcing that he and Strong-Thompson are nominating Potter from District I, and he then presented a map of Mandeville’s three districts with indicators showing where each of the current P&Z members live plus the three applicants.

This quickly drew comments from other council members, including Councilman at Large Jason Zuckerman, who said, “For some reason I just feel that if we already had a District II person (P&Z member) and we were putting another District II person on — and there was nobody from District I (on the P&Z), we wouldn’t be having the same conversation, so I’m just asking how was this really arrived at and why did we not include the District II councilman (Vogeltanz).

Discon countered by pointing out the large geographical area of District I, saying that such a large area needed more representation.

“If you look at the map… A substantial amount of land that you only have one person representing (District I), and he’s in Fontainebleu (neighborhood),” he said.

But while the land area of District I is significantly larger than the other districts, the population — by law — is roughly the same, according to the City of Mandeville Home Rule Charter, §2.01(E). The population of each of the three districts is about 4,000 which means District II is definitively less represented than District I.

(Click here to view the official district map for the City of Mandeville.)

Zuckerman and McGuire both continued making this argument for the remainder of council debate.

It was Zuckerman and former District II Councilman Dr. Skelly Kreller who nominated Nicholas Cressy who filled a vacated seat on the P&Z last year. Zuckerman said he had pushed for Rosenow from District II for that seat as well, but Kreller wanted Cressy from District III instead.

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Editor’s Note: Kreller was ousted from the District II council seat, 58% to 42%, by Vogeltanz in the March 2024 primary election.

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McGuire said she declined the appointment from Discon because she was sensitive to the long-held criticism that District III was over-represented on the P&Z.

McGuire voiced her own concerns with the Potter pick, recounting the recent history as to how the City ended up with such an imbalance of representation on the P&Z, and how the Sucette Harbor and Port Marigny properties are both in District II.

“What I’d really love is to hear from the District II constituents about how they feel about this. How do they feel about the fact that no one is on the Planning and Zoning Commission (from District II),” McGuire said.

This led to the first of Strong-Thompson’s points of order: “Point of order. You’re challenging who was nominated — uh — asked to discuss this. That needs to stop.”

Discon immediately agreed, in effect shutting down McGuire: “Yeah, this is not a debate.” Discon defended selecting Strong-Thompson over Vogeltanz.

Strong-Thompson continued, “This is not a debate of how this was chosen. I am offended! (shouting) Absolutely offended that you are challenging how the representation is going on.”

This prompted Zuckerman to protest, insisting that elected council members can make whatever arguments they want for or against agenda items that come before them, as they are a legislative body.

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Ms. McGuire was making a point and she absolutely has the right to question everything anybody does on this council and I think you’re out of order.
— Councilman at Large Jason Zuckerman

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“Ms. McGuire has earned the right to voice her opinion up here. You may not like it. I’ve been on the council. I’ve served a previous term. And I’ve had other council members speaking things I flat out didn’t agree with, but I never yelled at them and I’ve never told them they don’t have the right to do it. Ms. McGuire was making a point and she absolutely has the right to question everything anybody does on this council and I think you’re out of order,” he said.

Vogeltanz spoke next, also complaining that District II was underrepresented, and lamenting the qualifications of applicant Rosenow.

Vogeltanz, Discon and Strong-Thompson got into a dustup, culminating in Vogeltanz raising his voice and Strong-Thompson calling a second point of order, asserting that Vogeltanz shouldn’t be discussing Rosenow (from District II) because she and Discon had picked Potter (from District I).

After agreeing to tone down his rhetoric, Vogeltanz wrapped up his remarks by telling Discon, “I don’t know how you can show your face in District II knowing that you cut them out of planning and zoning.”

This drew a sharp rebuke from Discon who said that as an at-large councilman he represents and sought support from the entire city during the March 2024 primary election, including District II.

“For you to make that kind of assumption, I think that’s kind of a low blow. I am the chairman of the council and I’m the councilman at large. I received the most votes of anyone that ran for office. I campaigned in all areas of the city and I was well-respected in all areas of the city. For you to say that was disrespectful,” he said.

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Editor’s Note: Discon led the pack of candidates for Councilman at Large in the March 2024 primary election with 36% of the vote, while Zuckerman and Burguières had 33% and 31%, respectively. Discon received criticism for urging voters to select only one candidate instead of the two that voters are allowed to select. He circulated a mailer which read in part, “You can vote for two candidates for Council At-Large, but you don’t have to.”

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According to Robert’s Rules of Order, a point of order is reserved for when a member believes that a specific rule is being violated and moving forward could cause irreparable legislative harm. The presiding officer is supposed to ask the calling member which rule they believe is being violated, and then render a decision of either “sustained” or “out of order” to the calling member. This procedure was not followed for either of Strong-Thompson’s points of order, nor was it followed at the prior October 10th meeting when Zuckerman called a point of order.

What’s more, under Robert’s Rules of Order, the majority on the council are supposed to have the right to override the presiding officer after he renders a decision on a point of order.

A vote on the P&Z replacement is expected at the next scheduled City Council meeting on November 21st.

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